Comments on: Save the world? Sure, but let’s collect every bit of treasure first. http://www.owlfolio.org/game/take-your-time/ Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:28:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: elsmi http://www.owlfolio.org/game/take-your-time/#comment-728 elsmi Sun, 22 Jun 2008 02:28:10 +0000 http://owl-folio.nfshost.com/uncat/save-the-world-sure-but-lets-collect-every-bit-of-treasure-first/#comment-728 <p>Two interesting aspects of rougelikes that might matter: First, if you die, it's never because you didn't quite twitch your finger at the right time -- no screens full of moving objects and if you touch one you die; it can be legitimately claimed that all nethack deaths are the player's fault for not planning better. Second, when you do start over, random generation means the game is totally different in detail, so it's not "god I have played this level thirty times I am so bored make it stop" like most modern games would be.</p> <p>Not that I am a useful resource on games, since I never play them, but maybe it gives a useful clue!</p> Two interesting aspects of rougelikes that might matter: First, if you die, it’s never because you didn’t quite twitch your finger at the right time – no screens full of moving objects and if you touch one you die; it can be legitimately claimed that all nethack deaths are the player’s fault for not planning better. Second, when you do start over, random generation means the game is totally different in detail, so it’s not “god I have played this level thirty times I am so bored make it stop” like most modern games would be.

Not that I am a useful resource on games, since I never play them, but maybe it gives a useful clue!

]]> By: madmanatw http://www.owlfolio.org/game/take-your-time/#comment-691 madmanatw Thu, 22 May 2008 00:34:18 +0000 http://owl-folio.nfshost.com/uncat/save-the-world-sure-but-lets-collect-every-bit-of-treasure-first/#comment-691 <p>I really don't have a good answer to this one. I mean, the one time I've won a roguelike (ZAngband), I did so by save scumming- and, having won once, I haven't save scummed since. So somehow they got away with it by making it part of the culture of the game, but beyond that I really don't have a good explanation for it.</p> I really don’t have a good answer to this one. I mean, the one time I’ve won a roguelike (ZAngband), I did so by save scumming- and, having won once, I haven’t save scummed since. So somehow they got away with it by making it part of the culture of the game, but beyond that I really don’t have a good explanation for it.

]]> By: zackw http://www.owlfolio.org/game/take-your-time/#comment-690 zackw Wed, 21 May 2008 12:28:26 +0000 http://owl-folio.nfshost.com/uncat/save-the-world-sure-but-lets-collect-every-bit-of-treasure-first/#comment-690 <p>also, I like the extra guards idea.</p> also, I like the extra guards idea.

]]> By: zackw http://www.owlfolio.org/game/take-your-time/#comment-689 zackw Wed, 21 May 2008 12:27:08 +0000 http://owl-folio.nfshost.com/uncat/save-the-world-sure-but-lets-collect-every-bit-of-treasure-first/#comment-689 <p>I remember the "The monsters rejoice ..." line!</p> <p>The thing with roguelikes is people accept and even embrace the rule that death means you start the game over. There are other single-player games that have similar characteristics (e.g., right now what my brain wants to do when it's tired is play ridiculously hard solitaire card games) but none of them have the dozens of hours of gameplay that goes into a winning roguelike run. And if you tried to do "death means start over" with a Final Fantasy or an Ultima I think people would throw the game across the room in frustration. So what's the difference? Is it just that when you start playing a roguelike you die dozens of times in the first few levels, so starting over isn't annoying, and then you're used to it?</p> I remember the “The monsters rejoice …” line!

The thing with roguelikes is people accept and even embrace the rule that death means you start the game over. There are other single-player games that have similar characteristics (e.g., right now what my brain wants to do when it’s tired is play ridiculously hard solitaire card games) but none of them have the dozens of hours of gameplay that goes into a winning roguelike run. And if you tried to do “death means start over” with a Final Fantasy or an Ultima I think people would throw the game across the room in frustration. So what’s the difference? Is it just that when you start playing a roguelike you die dozens of times in the first few levels, so starting over isn’t annoying, and then you’re used to it?

]]> By: madmanatw http://www.owlfolio.org/game/take-your-time/#comment-688 madmanatw Wed, 21 May 2008 04:11:03 +0000 http://owl-folio.nfshost.com/uncat/save-the-world-sure-but-lets-collect-every-bit-of-treasure-first/#comment-688 <p>A scaling bad guy is fine, IMO, but you are right that it can't scale linearly with the player- Oblivion did that and it is by far the #1 complaint I hear about the game. Awesome game, but if you spend a few levels learning non-combat skills, suddenly every little bandit on the road is running around in uber armor and can kick your ass.</p> <p>If you want it to look "natural", with each sidequest you perform that increases your power somehow, the badguy has a few more guards in place.Not enough to counterbalance the increase in your own power, but enough that it is clear that he's taking advantage of the time you're taking to do these quests to beef up security. :)</p> <p>For your nethack question you're going to have to define "lose". I would daresay that most RPGs don't actually let you lose in the first place. (Ultimas IV-VI, for instance, had the King rez you if you died.) The ones that did just make you go back to the last saved game. (The SSI goldbox games, which I'm replaying, actually just say "The monsters rejoice that the party has been destroyed." and then dump you to DOS!) Nethack and its ilk's uniqueness seems to me more in the save scum prevention.</p> A scaling bad guy is fine, IMO, but you are right that it can’t scale linearly with the player- Oblivion did that and it is by far the #1 complaint I hear about the game. Awesome game, but if you spend a few levels learning non-combat skills, suddenly every little bandit on the road is running around in uber armor and can kick your ass.

If you want it to look “natural”, with each sidequest you perform that increases your power somehow, the badguy has a few more guards in place.Not enough to counterbalance the increase in your own power, but enough that it is clear that he’s taking advantage of the time you’re taking to do these quests to beef up security. :)

For your nethack question you’re going to have to define “lose”. I would daresay that most RPGs don’t actually let you lose in the first place. (Ultimas IV-VI, for instance, had the King rez you if you died.) The ones that did just make you go back to the last saved game. (The SSI goldbox games, which I’m replaying, actually just say “The monsters rejoice that the party has been destroyed.” and then dump you to DOS!) Nethack and its ilk’s uniqueness seems to me more in the save scum prevention.

]]> By: zackw http://www.owlfolio.org/game/take-your-time/#comment-687 zackw Wed, 21 May 2008 03:59:10 +0000 http://owl-folio.nfshost.com/uncat/save-the-world-sure-but-lets-collect-every-bit-of-treasure-first/#comment-687 <p>I like the notion of sentient agencies advancing their own agendas. It also might help with the thing where you can level up the party until the final battle is an anticlimax: who's to say the end boss hasn't been leveling up, too? It can't just scale linearly, though, because you want the player to feel that the leveling was some use - I envision a curve where, say, you can fight the end boss at level X but it's ridiculously difficult; at level X+5 it's much easier; X+10 only a bit easier than X+5; X+20 not much point.</p> <p>And then perhaps there can be in-story consequences to putting off the endgame too long; not fatal ones, but maybe not-getting-the-optimal-ending ones. Works best in a context where there's a range of outcomes, not just Win and maybe also Bonus Win. Doing the endgame as soon as possible should be like doing a challenge ascension in Nethack - significantly harder but also significantly cooler.</p> <p>Speaking of Nethack, I wonder how it is that contra all other games, roguelikes manage to get away with making you start from scratch when you lose. Is it just that everyone is used to that in that genre (but no others)? Seems too simple.</p> I like the notion of sentient agencies advancing their own agendas. It also might help with the thing where you can level up the party until the final battle is an anticlimax: who’s to say the end boss hasn’t been leveling up, too? It can’t just scale linearly, though, because you want the player to feel that the leveling was some use - I envision a curve where, say, you can fight the end boss at level X but it’s ridiculously difficult; at level X+5 it’s much easier; X+10 only a bit easier than X+5; X+20 not much point.

And then perhaps there can be in-story consequences to putting off the endgame too long; not fatal ones, but maybe not-getting-the-optimal-ending ones. Works best in a context where there’s a range of outcomes, not just Win and maybe also Bonus Win. Doing the endgame as soon as possible should be like doing a challenge ascension in Nethack - significantly harder but also significantly cooler.

Speaking of Nethack, I wonder how it is that contra all other games, roguelikes manage to get away with making you start from scratch when you lose. Is it just that everyone is used to that in that genre (but no others)? Seems too simple.

]]> By: madmanatw http://www.owlfolio.org/game/take-your-time/#comment-686 madmanatw Sun, 18 May 2008 13:11:12 +0000 http://owl-folio.nfshost.com/uncat/save-the-world-sure-but-lets-collect-every-bit-of-treasure-first/#comment-686 <p>Yeah, that's one of the hard things. Making a hard time limit means that if you lose a fight because you weren't ready, you have to go back some huge amount of time and do a lot of things differently- you can't just reload to before the fight. And no one wants that. It would suck to have a week to perform Critical Mission, fail, and go "hmm, how could I shave 12 hours off of the time that took me? All I can think of is doing this part from Day 2 faster..." at which point the next click is more likely to be "Quit" than "Reload."</p> <p>For the purists among us we may wail and gnash our teeth that most players just don't really care about that much realism, or at least that piece of realism. The main example of it I point at is Ultima VII, where the Big Bad is waiting for a planetary alignment. Your handy orrery has the planets click to their next positions each time you finished a plot point, but it would happily hover at "Real Soon Now" for as long as you wanted to wait to get to the final room.</p> <p>Not really sure what to suggest, though- U7's system would have worked fine if it hadn't been modeling a natural phenomenon. Do something like that only have it be sentient agencies who are advancing their own agendas and I have no real problem with it. While you're doing sidequests, maybe so are they. ;)</p> Yeah, that’s one of the hard things. Making a hard time limit means that if you lose a fight because you weren’t ready, you have to go back some huge amount of time and do a lot of things differently- you can’t just reload to before the fight. And no one wants that. It would suck to have a week to perform Critical Mission, fail, and go “hmm, how could I shave 12 hours off of the time that took me? All I can think of is doing this part from Day 2 faster…” at which point the next click is more likely to be “Quit” than “Reload.”

For the purists among us we may wail and gnash our teeth that most players just don’t really care about that much realism, or at least that piece of realism. The main example of it I point at is Ultima VII, where the Big Bad is waiting for a planetary alignment. Your handy orrery has the planets click to their next positions each time you finished a plot point, but it would happily hover at “Real Soon Now” for as long as you wanted to wait to get to the final room.

Not really sure what to suggest, though- U7’s system would have worked fine if it hadn’t been modeling a natural phenomenon. Do something like that only have it be sentient agencies who are advancing their own agendas and I have no real problem with it. While you’re doing sidequests, maybe so are they. ;)

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